Personal Preferences of Drumshed Members
Color of Glue When Dry
Wood Moisture Level
What Is PVA?
What Is The Difference Between Type I & Type II Water-resistance?
Questions Answered By Titebond
Glue Used For Drum Wrap
The following is a list of glues and a discussion on their uses. Just because a glue is listed here does not mean it is suitable for drum building. Please read the Glue Description of each before use.
Elmer's Probond Exterior Wood Glue - PVAC Copolymer Adhesive
Titebond All Purpose White - PVA
Titebond Original - Aliphatic PVA
Titebond II - Cross-linking polyvinyl acetate (catalyzed PVA)
Titebond III - Advanced Proprietary Polymer (catalyzed PVA)
DAP Weldwood - (resorcinol-phenol-formaldehyde)
Casein (Hide glue)
Unibond 800, Cascamite, Extramite - (urea-formaldehyde)
Gorilla - (Urethane )
Bison - D2, Super Wood D3, Pu Max Timber liquid, PU Max Timber Thixotropic
Titebond III seems to be the most popular and is well suited for drum building. Epoxy may be even more ideal, although expensive and a bit more trouble since it's a 2-part system.
Many of the glues listed above, if used properly, will create a joint stronger than the wood itself. "Used properly" means that the two surfaces being glued are a good fit and that the glue is not being used as filler. If done correctly and there is a break, it will not come at the glue joint - the surrounding wood will split first.
According to the Titebond company, urethane glues (including their own) are not suitable for the drum building process because they can break on the glue joint. They also are known to expand which is not desirable for the close tolerances used in drum building.
Titebond All Purpose White. Fast drying. Open time 5 minutes.
Titebond Original (yellow). Fast drying Aliphatic. Open time 5 minutes.
Titebond II. This is a PVA that has been catalyzed to add strength, heat resistance, and is water resistant.
Open time 5 minutes. Has more water resistance than Original, but less than Titebond III.
Titebond III. This is a PVA that has been catalyzed to add strength, heat resistance, and is water proof.
Additionally, this has excellent concussive strenght which makes it ideal from drums.
Open time 10 minutes. Has greater water resistance than Titebond Original or Titebond II. Strength rivals epoxy.
This is the glue recommended by Titebond for drum building.
Epoxy resin - Strong, relatively expensive, and is recommended by some for its acoustic qualities. Doesn't contain water or require moisture in the wood in order to achieve ideal bond. This makes it well suited for kiln-dried woods like the ones used in drum building. Does not require pressure to affect a cure. Does not need the parts to be in intimate contact since only minimal shrinkage occurs during cure. These features make epoxy particularly effective for bonding less well prepared surfaces and poor fits. Excellent resistance to moisture and weathering.
DAP Weldwood - (resorcinol) Resorcinol is a phenol formaldehyde (PF) resin, black in color. It is a marginally less toxic but more expensive alternative to Urea Formaldehyde glue. It performs better under heat-stress than epoxy resin, which is another less commonly used bonding agent for plywood, etc. However, it requires high clamping pressure for good bond. Phenol-formaldehyde is commonly used in plywood due to it's moisture resistance quality. Has been used since the 40's to bond wooden aircraft structures. It's stronger than urea-formaldehyde and about the same strength as epoxy. Good resistance to moisture and weathering. A full technical definition of phenol-formaldehyde can be found at: Wikipidia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol_formaldehyde_resin
Unibond 800, Cascamite, Extramite (UF or urea-formaldehyde) - strong, toxic, very long open time (about an hour). Have been used for decades to bond wooden aircraft structures. Requires high clamping pressure for good bond. Are strong but not as strong as epoxy or Resorcinol/phenol formaldehyde. Mixed reviews on resistance to moisture and weathering. Very poor according to some, others say it is waterproof. One website for fishing rod builders (where moisture and weathering are likely) says it will delaminate over time at this type of glue joint.
According to this boating related website (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/wooden-boat-building-restoration/epoxy-versus-cascamite-compatibilities-4025.html) these glue types require some sort of additional mechanical support such as screws.
Comes as a powder, so it's a 2 part glue.
Casein (Hide glue) - Casein glue is a protein derivative of skimmed milk. It is one of the last commonly used natural glues - the use of animal glues derived from hide and bones being now all but obsolete. It is effective at both quite cold and hot temperatures, but is susceptible to moisture and fungal attack. Casein's drying time can be controlled, making it ideal for large glue laminated beams, sandwich panels, flush doors and attachment of laminates.
Gorilla - polyurethane glue....Water is the catalyst, so moisten the surface of what you're gluing to activate it. It foams and expands when curing and will fill minor gaps. However, expanded glue contains bubbles, so it cannot fill gaps as thoroughly as such glues as epoxies. It is therefore likely to be a better glue for wood end grain, as it will be better absorbed into the wood tubules than the more common aliphatic glues. Once cured it is waterproof. Three year shelf life. One reviewer said he ran tests and concluded it was not as strong as traditional wood glues such as Titebond. It works on a lot of materials other than wood. Does not fill the pores of wood deeply.
The expansion properties of this glue make it ill-suited for the close tolerances of drum building.
The Titebond company does not recommend urethane glues for drum building (including their own) because they are likely to break on the glue joint.
Bison Glues - The D2 type is recommended by Koko. More info at: http://www.bison.net/US/en/index.do
Super Wood D3 - PVAs dispersion adhesive, moisture resistant, for interior use, for use on parts that fit exactly
Pu Max Timber liquid - for parts that don't fit exactly. Suitable for exterior use.
1-part polyurethane adhesive, which sets hard under the influence of atmospheric and/or material moisture. Weather and sea water resistant.
PU Max Timber Thixotropic - Transparent, one-component thixotropic polyurethane adhesive, setting when exposed to atmospheric moisture or by material humidity. Weather and sea water resistant.
PVA Glues (Elmers/Titebond family) - According to the Titebond website:
Polyvinyl acetate (PVA) glue.
Any glue consisting chiefly of polyvinyl acetate polymer. This category includes both traditional white glues and yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in strength, flexibility, water resistance, heat resistance and sandability, they are generally non-toxic. All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications.
Additional comments from the Drumshed site:
There are times when PVA is unsuitable such as when in contact with metal, it will quickly corrode metal structures unless a membrane barrier of say clear varnish is added before the joint makes contact.
Aliphatic - From the Titebond website:
Aliphatic: Yellow glues which provide more grab for shorter clamp times, and offer better water resistance and heat resistance than traditional white glues.
Additional comments from the Drumshed site:
In recent years, a variation of PVA has been developed that uses resin, this is called Aliphatic resin adhesive which uses the early principles of PVA beads but with waterproof crisper setting to aid sanding and be more waterproof - something that PVA is not. Aliphatic resin is more expensive but also has increased drying rate due to the way it is made during manufacture, it also has excellent quick grab qualities.
Formaldehyde Glues - from:http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/glue.htm
Formaldehyde glues are favoured whenever strong structural joins are required, and for bonding wood particles to make composite timber products. Urea formaldehyde and phenol formaldehyde glues are those most commonly used in composite wood products, such as MDF or particleboard. Other types include melamine, resorcinol and tannin formaldehydes, and epoxies.
Hide Glues - from the Fret Not Guitar Repair web site: http://www.ask.com/bar?q=what+is+aliphatic+glue&page=1&qsrc=0&zoom=%3CKW%3EAliphatic%3C%2FKW%3E+Resin+%3CKW%3EGlue %3C%2FKW%3E%7C&ab=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fretnotguitarrepair.com%2Fglues.htm Hide glue is one the oldest and most useful glues used in instrument making and repair.
This glue is sometimes frowned upon because it is a little high maintenance. Hide glue is purchased in a dry form, mixed with water and then heated before use. It must be kept hot to prevent it from gelling and this requires a glue pot or other means to produce the heat necessary. It's a little stinky and has far less working time than aliphatic. But regardless, I still find it indispensable. It offers a wonderful "grab" that is essential when gluing fingerboards and bridges as they try and slide out of position when clamping. It will stick to itself should regluing be necessary, it is water soluble, and does not creep like aliphatic glue.
Oh yes, there is an instant Hide Glue available as well but I steer clear of that.
Additional comments from the Drumshed site:
By the way has anybody ever used glue made of animal bones? (I am not sure how you call that in English.) This is used by violin makers and is supposed to be superior in tonal quality?
Glue has not been widely produced that way in quite some time. I think you will find that your run of the mill Titebond, or something similar, would yield sonic results with no perceptible difference.
It's called Hide Glue. It's still available, and not very difficult to find. You'll find that it comes in a dry form. You need to mix it with water and heat it in a glue pot. It needs to be at a constant temperature. As it cools it gels and adhesion starts. It's can be rather finicky to use. So make sure to do your research and practice with it a lot. It is also water soluble, so don't expect to use water based finishes, or expect it to hold up in high humidity as well as polyurethane or urea glues. I have also been told that it is the only glue to use in building\restoring classical stringed instruments.
A Letter from Titebond
Drumshed member, sadolcort, wrote Titebond with questions about glue. Their response is well worth reading and provides information useful in drum building.
Q: What is the difference between aliphatic and PVA?
A: Both start out with a polyvinyl acetate base polymer. The base polymers are different formulations and they are reacted a bit differently, so that the end product is different. The PVAs or basic white glues, is softer when it dries, and the end bond is not quite as heat resistant, rigid or as strong as the aliphatics. So, the aliphatic resin glues are stronger, more rigid and a little more heat resistant. Neither is water resistant. Then you get into the catalyzed PVAs or the PVACs. These are PVA glues that are catalyzed to give a water resistant (Titebond II) or waterproof (Titebond III) bond. The catalyzation also gives the end bond the rigidity of the aliphatic resin, and adds more strength and heat resistance than either the PVA or the aliphatic resin glues.
Q: Is there any advantage to Titebond 3, perhaps its formula successfully bonds exotics like ebony, or does the oily nature of ebony require a different type of glue, e.g. epoxy?
A: Any of these glues will bond exotics. We recommend that you wipe the wood with acetone, allow it to dry, apply the glue and then keep it clamped for 1-4 days.
Q: What is known about Titebond formulas as they age? Will the glue become brittle and susceptible to cracking apart, or might I be handing down a solidly glued drum to a grandchild?
A: Any of the wood glues should give you an assembly that will last through multiple generations, but the glue shares the spotlight with design when longevity is considered.
Q: Being a drum, there's shock and vibration every time the drumhead is hit. Can you offer some form of guidance on Titebond's performance over time in this situation?
A: Because of this very consideration, I always recommend the Titebond III for drums. It is stronger, more heat resistant and waterproof. More importantly for the drum, it has excellent concussive strength. This product is recommended for skateboards, skis, surfboards, fishing rods and bows (as in bows and arrows) because of this strength. The other waterbased glues have this as well, but with less strength. We've worked closely with companies who manufacture these products, and longevity of the bond is difficult to attain in these applications, and this is why they choose the Titebond III.
Do not ever use the polyurethane wood glues (ours included) where this type of strength is needed. If you smack a polyurethane joint hard enough, it will pop apart at the glue line because of its lack of concussive strength.
Editor's note: Don't confuse polyurethane glues with PVAs. They are two different things. Polyurethanes are glues like Gorilla glue.
Personal Preferences Of DrumShed Members:
I use Epoxy Resin. It is a complete solvent free system for bonding, filleting, fairing, filling, composite construction and coating.
Working temperature range is 12 to 25 degrees Centigrade. If you cannot maintain this temperature range the system will still work, it will just take a little longer to cure. If you can heat the resin and hardener containers in hot water or a heated box this will help in dispensing, mixing and curing. Try to maintain a temperature of 12 to 25 degrees "C" for at least 2 hours after the joint is closed whilst the initial chemical bonds are forming. Do not store resin at very low temperatures, as waxing or crystalization can take place. It appears as a wax like layer at the bottom of the container; it is not detrimental to the resin and can be removed by placing the container in hot water (tap hot - not boiling). As the resin warms, the crystals dissolve back into the resin.
It is extremely important that the resin and hardener are mixed thoroughly. A mixing time of two minutes is recommended. If using measuring pumps, ensure that the resin and hardener are warm and the same temperature. In cold conditions, stand containers in hot water. If the resin and hardener is allowed to go cold, it is possible that the mix ratio may vary.
Based on the 15 to 20 degree temperature range curing times are as follows:
UKH136 Hardener based on 12 to 25 degree temperature range curing times are as follows:
Pot Life 45 to 35 minutes. This is the workable life of the resin system.
First stage 4 to 7 hours
Depending on the temperature the resin will go from a "Gel" state to a solid within 4 to 7 hours and the cross linking of the resin and hardener will have started. At this time it will be possible to indent the mix with your finger nail. You can at this stage apply a second coat of resin/hardener mixture as the application of a filleting mix over a bonding mix or the addition of a woven glass tape over the filleting mix without any further preparation.
Titebond I, II and III are just fine for most woods, e.g. maple, mahogany, birch, beech, walnut, cherry, paduak, bubinga, etc. Unless you're into an exotic (ebony comes to mind), you're good to go.
Any of Titebond's offerings have more than sufficient strength to carry the day. Titebond 1 is aliphatic, which is basically white glue, and Type II and III are PVA, rated for some measure of moisture resistance. I pay $2.60 for an 8 oz. bottle of T2 at Big Orange Hardware, it's a no-brainer. (Editor's note: According to Titebond, this info is reversed. Titebond 1 is PVA, but not Aliphatic, whereas type II and III are PVA and Aliphatic.
Titebond comes in an extended formula, which means the glue's "open time" is longer, so you have a slightly longer window in which to apply the glue and wiggle the staves when clamping up before the glue begins to set. I've not found extended formula at Big Orange, I usually go to my local Woodcraft or woodworking specialty store.
Titebond is guaranteed to fail if the stave's joints do not fit accurately; the glue begins to dry/set before you're done applying it to all staves, clamping is not sufficient, etc. In fact, any glue will fail under these conditions! The keys to success include accurate milling of the stave's angles and a good gluing / clamping strategy.
Type 1 yellow glue is aliphatic resin, Type 2 glue (which is water resistant) is polyvinyl acetate. Either glue type will be more than sufficient to bond well fitted maple staves with clean edges, so I would council to not be concerned about either glue's rated strength.
My father is a furniture repair/refinisher and this (Weldbond) is the only glue he will use. This stuff can glue concrete and can be used as a sealer if you thin it (i think 1/5). An interesting fact about this stuff, it is certified by NASA for space use. Weldbond can glue almost any material and dries crystal clear. The pieces are solid within an hour but the longer it sets the stronger the bond. This stuff can be used just like white school glue or any other specialty glue.
In guitar building, I have heard many reports that using hide glue (a glue that dries to a crystaline state) rather than regular wood glue or Titebond can make a very noticeable and pronounced difference in the tone of the instrument.
Titebond III is you're way to go, imo. Also, Bison D2 is recommended. By all experience shown here we can conclude that the weakest point is not the edge, (bevel?), nor the glue, but the wood itself.
It seems the best is any expanding high bond adhesive like gorilla glue.
I like Titebond III
Elmers wood glue, or Titebond. I've only used Gorilla on chairs, where high stress is involved.
Anyone familiar with urea-formaldehyde or phenol-formaldehyde? It's the type of adhesive used for gluing plywood and LVL (Laminated Veneer Lumber). They seem to be extraordinary strong (and toxic).
Unibond 800 = urea-formaldehyde...2 part adhesive with a powder catalyst this is used in vacuum pressing of veneers also. Gorilla = polyurethane glue....water is the catalyst and expands when curing. Regular white and yellow wood glues = PVA type...plain ol wood glue. They all have their places, along with the epoxy resins mentioned earlier, which is very strong yes, but also very expensive...
I used Elmer's on my 20 ply. That thing is SOLID. I wouldn't use Gorrila on wrap because when it dries it expands quite a bit. This could push the wrap off the shell if not clamped heavily (I made this mistake).
If you want something that will not expand and will NEVER break.....use West Systems epoxy......Titebond is also a good one.......but not as strong as West Systems.
I much prefer using aliphatic resin (Titebond for one) over extramite. We use aliphatic on all our shells & wood projects. I have used both, & when we start doing "other shell types" I can't imagine us changing.
Jamie Buxton (from a furniture maker's web site):
If you do go for urea-formaldehyde, pay attention to the temperature issue. Unlike PVA, the curing time on urea-formaldehyde is a big function of temperature. The one I use, Unibond 800, cures in one hour at 90 degrees, and takes 5 hours at 70 degrees. It really doesn't cure properly below 65 degrees. Other urea-formaldehyde brands are similar.
In general conversation "open time" refers to how long you have to work with a glue before it starts to "set".
Titebond gives an open time and a total assembly time for their glues. Here is a clear description of these from Theresa Litten, Senior Technical Specialist:
"The open assembly time is how long you have to apply the glue to the substrates and bring them together.
The closed assembly time is how long you have to adjust the assembly and get the clamps on, once the glued substrates are together.
The open assembly time and the closed assembly time are combined to give you the total assembly time."
In the case of 2 part glues, it is the amount of time after you have mixed the parts together. With staves it's a good idea to choose a glue with a long open time so that you have time to position the staves before the glue begins to set.
From the Titebond website (http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?UserType=1&ProdSel=ProductCategoryTB.asp?prodcat=1) with additional info provided by Theresa Litten, Senior Technical Specialist:
Titebond All Purpose White: 5 min. open assembly time, 10 minutes closed assembly time, 15 min. total assembly time.
Titebond Original Wood Glue: 5 min. open assembly time, 5-10 minutes closed assemblly time, 10-15 min. total assembly time.
Titebond II: 5 min open assembly time, 5-10 minutes closed assemblly time, 10-15 total assembly time.
Titebond III: 10 min open assembly time, 10-15 minutes closed assemblly time, 20-25 minutes total assembly time.
From Don Abele at http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13052
(In reference to veneering):
Glues that have the longest open time fall into two categories: Urea-Formaldehyde and Resorcinol Glues. Specifically, I use Unibond 800 (a urea glue), which has an open time of about an hour depending on how you mix it (it's a 2-part glue). This is what I use for veneering. There are many others out there. DAP makes a glue called Weldwood that's a resorcinol glue (though I've never used it personally).
Color Of Glue When Dry
What are the resulting colors when the Titebond Wood Glues dry?
Titebond III Ultimate - Light Brown
Titebond II Premium - Yellow
Titebond Original - Yellow
Titebond Dark - Brown
Titebond Liquid Hide - Transparent amber
Titebond Melamine - Colorless
Titebond Molding & Trim - Transparent with a light brown tint
Titebond Polyurethane - Yellowish amber
Titebond Home School - Colorless
Oily Woods From:http://www.leevalley.com/home/Articl...7166&action=32
(In reference to pen making, but this should also apply to drums)
Natural oils in some exotic woods provide a beautiful natural polish, but also make these woods difficult to glue and can interfere with finish curing. Polyurethanes (PU), certain cyanoacrylates (super or CA glues) and certain epoxies perform well, given the correct conditions. The choice of adhesive for gluing exotic woods is determined by personal preference, speed of cure and ease of application. Gloves and good ventilation are recommended. CA bonds skin rapidly, and both PU and epoxy are toxic and difficult to remove from skin. G2 epoxy is recommended for oily woods. It has excellent gap-filling qualities, so the tube fit is not so critical. Allow curing for 24 hours at room temperature before turning. Wood moisture content is not an issue because epoxies cure by chemical polymerization.
Wood Moisture Level
For many traditional wood glues, moisture content (m.c.) plays an important part in the gluing process and water is an essential requirement for the glue. The wood must therefore have the required level of moisture for the chemical reaction to take place. For phenol-formaldehyde it is 8% - 12%, for urea-formaldehyde it is 6% - 14% and for resorcinol 12% - 18%. Some of the moisture required can be gained from the glues themselves - urea-formaldehydes can generate up to 50%-60% water and phenol-formaldehydes approximately 35% water by weight. Epoxy adhesives cure by a different chemical process. They neither contain water, nor is water necessary for them to form bonds with wood. Epoxies can therefore perform very satisfactorily below 6% m.c. as well as giving excellent bonds up to 20% - 25% m.c., well outside the limits of the other glues. Kiln dried timber often has a moisture content well below 8% and is therefore best glued using epoxy adhesives.
What Is PVA?
Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) Glue
Any glue consisting primarily of polyvinyl acetate polymer. This category includes most traditional white glues and more advanced yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in strength, flexibility, water-resistance and sandability, they offer good performance, cleanup with water and are non-toxic.
Because PVA glues tend to “creep”, or slowly stretch under long-term loads, they are not recommended for structural applications.
What Is The Difference Between Type I & Type II Water-resistance?
Both of these tests are conducted using 6" x 6" birch laminates glued together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing the specimens while they are wet.
Questions Answered By Titebond
Q: What is the clamping and drying time of Titebond Wood Glues?
A: For most of our wood glues, we recommend clamping an unstressed joint for thirty minutes to an hour. Stressed joints need to be clamped for 24 hours. We recommend not stressing the new joint for at least 24 hours. For Titebond Polyurethane Glue, we recommend clamping for at least forty-five minutes. The glue is completely cured within 6 hours.
Q: Why should I use Titebond® III instead of Titebond® II or the other Titebond Wood Glues?
A: While all Titebond® products provide superior performance, Titebond® III is especially useful for outdoor applications in cooler temperatures or when concern for substantial moisture calls for the use of a Type I glue. For interior applications, the longer working time of Titebond® III provides woodworkers the necessary latitude to ensure that substrates are precisely aligned before being bonded. Overall, Titebond® III combines superior strength, Type I water-resistance, long open time and low chalk temperature into one easy-to-use formulation.
Q: Can Titebond Wood Glues be used for projects using teak, cedar or redwood?
A: Because a surface layer of oil or tannic acid tends to build up on these species, they can present a problem. For either type of wood, planing, jointing, or sanding shortly before bonding will remove the contaminating layer, and allow successful bonding. Otherwise, the surface being bonded will need to be wiped with acetone to remove the layer. Acetone dries quickly, and allows bonding almost immediately after the surfaces have been wiped.
(Page 2 of this pdf file has a complete chart of Titebond glues - their type, strength, dried color, open time, etc.)
This is a Lowe's article on glue types (great article that includes glues that would be useful and some that would not be useful for drum making.) http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...GlueGuide.html
Glue Used For Drum Wrap
3M-NF (contact cement) is best.
From Home Depot - The contact cement in the green can... Weldwood is the brand. Green can... not the red can. Red can = bad.
Don't even bother with Home Center stuff. Go to www.grainger.com and get the 3M. The stuff at home centers is primarily made for counter top laminates like formica and wilsonart. Some of the stuff you might come in contact (pardon to pun) with there will eat drum wrap. I would advise knowing EXACTLY what to use before guessing. I know for a fact that 3M Fastbond 30NF works great and will not harm wrap.
The 3M 30NF is the best. The green can Weldwood is pretty darn good and easier to find. A gallon would last a looooooooong time! Unless you are wrapping a drum or two a day.
When using contact cement it is best to be patient. Lots of times people try to just slab it on, then are so anxious to get the wrap on it doesn't dry fully. Apply it slowly and to a medium-thick consistency with no runs. Apply one coat to the wrap, then to the shell. I do the wrap first cause it takes a bit longer for it to dry on the wrap cause it's not porous like the wood. Then wait 15 minutes... minimum.
With contact cement, try a little contact cement thinner. It'll gob less. Then use whatever method of lining up you want, tape hinge, wall... my only extra tip is the thinner. I got little lumps that show when the light hits it just right on my first wrap job, thinner fixed all wraps following that first one.
I'd go to Drumfoundry.com and read their tutorial on wrapping shells. I think they sell the 3M brand bond that most of the custom drum companies use to bond wrap. I know that Precision Drum sells it for about 20 bucks or so. It's strong, bonds over time, and is great for wrapping shells. There's a PVC cement that you can get to use on the seam, if you think you need it. It actually bonds the seams over time. Get a small plastic container that forces a pin head bead of adhesive and put it on. You can get the adhesive and bottle at a local home store.
The D Tran:
According to this tutorial,
I should use two coats of glue on a raw shell, because the first coat mostly soaks in.
The majority of what I do is wraps and I've never had a problem with a single coat on both surfaces. I suppose two coats would make sense but I've never tried it.